What is a Worldview? - Roy Kosin

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Concerning Him. An Emmaus podcast is a ministry of Emmaus Bible College. Concerning Him seeks to enrich Christians around the globe by educating and equipping them through various media. For more information about Emmaus, please visit Emmaus.edu. [00:00:21] Speaker B: Hello, welcome to another episode of The Concerning podcast. Today I'm joined by Bible professor here at Emmaus Bible College, roy Cozen. Welcome, Roy. [00:00:30] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:00:31] Speaker D: Good to be with you. [00:00:32] Speaker B: Eric, excited to have you on. I've been talking to you for a while about coming on the podcast, so I'm very excited to have you. [00:00:38] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:00:40] Speaker B: Today we're going to have a discussion about something that you're passionate about, you teach about here at Emmaus and that's worldview. What is a worldview? What's a Christian worldview? And kind of get into that. But before we get there, it would be great if you would kind of give us your background, your life story. You started teaching at Emmaus seven, eight years ago, something like that, and what kind of brought you up in life to that point? [00:01:04] Speaker D: Yeah, a lot of my story actually connects with my passion for worldview. I was raised in a Christian home and was always at church, good teaching, learned the Bible, Sunday school, children's church on through youth group. And we used to hear preaching of God's word three or four times a week, 40 or 50 minutes a shot. My dad doing primarily most of it. So I was very firmly rooted in the truth of God's Word and what the Bible said. [00:01:36] Speaker C: But I went to public school, so. [00:01:38] Speaker D: I was exposed to sort of all the public school, and this again would have been a long time ago. I graduated from high school in 1984, so the world was a little different. We were in the south, so we were part of the Bible Belt, but still there were a little bit of pressure, I guess, of drugs and just living a life that was different. But I was a good rule keeper, and so I didn't really face that much peer pressure because our church connection was so strong with youth group. But then I went to Clemson University and that sort of rocked my world. I was studying engineering in my first semester. You have to take some general courses, so one of them was a sociology course. And that professor just raised so many issues that I had never thought about. And this is not if you've seen the movies, God is not dead. [00:02:33] Speaker C: This was not a professor who got. [00:02:34] Speaker D: In your face and yelled and screamed and argued and squashed any view of God. [00:02:40] Speaker C: He was very warm and kind and moral. [00:02:43] Speaker D: I mean, the man went to Africa to see how his money was being spent, that he was donating, and he. [00:02:49] Speaker C: Lived a very simple life, but he was an atheist. [00:02:52] Speaker B: Okay. [00:02:52] Speaker D: And he would just ask a lot. [00:02:53] Speaker C: Of questions, and I was faced with. [00:02:56] Speaker D: Trying to answer those questions and then all the other freedoms that college gives you, you begin to wrestle with the way you were raised in terms of what you did and didn't do. So that was a big part of my process of thinking through how do. [00:03:10] Speaker C: I answer the big questions? And I was probably a little deeper. [00:03:15] Speaker D: Thinker than normal, even at a young age, but I wanted to have those answers. [00:03:21] Speaker C: Thank the Lord and his grace that. [00:03:24] Speaker D: I sought the answers back in God's word and back in the community of faith. But I did wrestle with doubts and struggled with how to answer some of those hard questions. I continued through engineering, got my degree and worked in engineering for nine years, married my wife Tracy, and we were back sort of at my home church and serving there as well as doing engineering. And we had three kids during that time. And I know I'm trying to get to how I got to Abeus. [00:03:52] Speaker B: This is good. This is really good. [00:03:54] Speaker D: How in the world did that end up? But we became, I guess, wondering what. [00:04:00] Speaker C: The Lord had for us. We were both in our hometown, and. [00:04:04] Speaker D: So after nine years of engineering and I was teaching and preaching in the local church there, we decided to ask. [00:04:13] Speaker C: The question, what else God would have? [00:04:15] Speaker D: And that ended up leading to I'll shorten the story big time and you can ask questions, but to Dallas Theological Seminary. [00:04:22] Speaker A: Okay. [00:04:22] Speaker D: And I spent four years in Dallas, or we spent four years in Dallas. And that was very eye opening. The beauty and broadness of the body of Christ and the clear teaching of. [00:04:33] Speaker C: The Word and theological reflection and study was deeper than I had done before. [00:04:40] Speaker D: And just again raising some of those. [00:04:43] Speaker C: Questions, even though I was more confident. [00:04:45] Speaker D: In the answers, but actually asking them in sort of new and different ways. And so that was incredible. Life transformation, as well as the practical aspects of God's grace working itself out in my life and me seeing his grace effective in my life in some ways for the first time. And so it was transformational to appreciate God's grace, to embrace it, to have the Lord break me in areas during those four years, and to have my. [00:05:16] Speaker C: Heart opened, which probably brought in more of the practical aspect of worldview. Earlier, when I was faced with questions. [00:05:23] Speaker D: From my sociology professor, it was about apologetics, arguing my Christian life, my beliefs, my theology became more real as I wrestled with that and of course, deepened my study. After seminary, we went back actually near. [00:05:41] Speaker C: Our hometown to another church and started. [00:05:43] Speaker D: Working with the youth, and I started. [00:05:45] Speaker C: Teaching in a small Christian school okay. [00:05:47] Speaker D: And taught Bible, and I taught math as well. So we did those two things for 13 years and finished raising our family and bringing it back to worldview again. [00:05:59] Speaker C: I taught the senior Bible class at a small Christian school. Okay. [00:06:02] Speaker D: And it wasn't connected with a particular church. And so there was every different sort of Christian and people that called themselves. [00:06:12] Speaker C: Christians and Christian families. [00:06:14] Speaker D: So as I taught them and reflected on my own experience, I wanted to prepare them for college. Many of them were going to Clemson or other public universities, and I knew what they would face, even more so. [00:06:26] Speaker C: Because the world had continued to change and evolve. [00:06:29] Speaker D: And so we wrestled during that year, and I would raise the questions and sort of ask them to answer them. I also knew that these young people were involved in the culture almost no different than from a non Christian home. And they were listening to the music, they were watching the movies, they were involved in the community or in the culture and society, and they didn't know. [00:06:54] Speaker C: How to process it. [00:06:56] Speaker D: They often would have their Christian life in one category and coming and doing Bible and then their whole life in the different. So that really challenged me. How do I encourage these young people, one, to understand the gospel well enough so they really are a follower of Jesus Christ, and they have really trusted in Christ for salvation, and then how do they live that out and how do they respond to the culture? [00:07:18] Speaker C: So after 13 years, we were again. [00:07:20] Speaker D: Faced with a transition and asked the question again, does the Lord have something else for us? Our kids were being emptied of the nest. And so we explored some possibilities, and the opening came up at Emmaus to come teach here. So Tracy, my wife, says that I can't ask those kind of questions anymore. No, we've been thankful to be here. And since I came, I taught Christian life and worldview was called a little something different when I first got here and sort of carrying on for what. [00:07:48] Speaker C: I did in that senior Bible class. [00:07:50] Speaker D: But from a little different perspective, obviously, at the college level of getting them to think carefully about their Christian faith. They're getting their theology at Emmaus, they're getting their Bible at Emmaus. [00:08:00] Speaker C: And I try and make the link with the culture, which I'm finding that. [00:08:04] Speaker D: Again, the majority of our students are listening to the music in our culture, watching the movies of our culture, and television and other things. But they need to learn how to process their culture in light of the. [00:08:18] Speaker C: Theology and the biblical training that they're getting at Emmaus. [00:08:22] Speaker B: And I'm excited to talk to you today about some of that, especially like the music and the movies and some of these things. It's interesting. Have you gotten to know Chris Heron much yet? [00:08:32] Speaker D: Yes. [00:08:33] Speaker B: Chris also found himself at Dallas after a college professor challenged him on a few things. He was the last episode we did, we just had him on the podcast and he was telling a very similar story. College professor at a secular university challenged him on some things he didn't have the answers. He wanted to study them. Found himself at Dallas Theological Seminary and now he's passionate about apologetics. So it's very interesting to hear that your stories are kind of similar in that way. [00:09:00] Speaker D: And I've listened to his apologetic presentation. I think he did it during CMS or ISI. ISI, yes. [00:09:08] Speaker B: Yeah. So he's very passionate about it too. But that's interesting. I want to talk to you about worldview. Obviously you're passionate about this. This has been especially working with youth, high schoolers now working with college. Maybe we should just start out. How would you define it? What is a worldview? A lot of people have probably heard this word and people maybe have different understandings or ideas of it. So how would you define worldview or how is it helpful, do you think, to define that word? [00:09:38] Speaker D: Yeah, the easiest starting definition that's memorable from the word is it's the view of we have of the world. So it's how we view the world. And a lot of people use the illustration of glasses that we put on. So when we look at the world, we process it mentally and with every aspect of our being. Since we're whole creatures, not just a mental processing, but our actions, our choices, our desires, our loves. All of those things are processed in. [00:10:09] Speaker C: Light of the lenses, the glasses that. [00:10:11] Speaker D: Are helping or decide how we respond to what we see. I mean, it's probably really easy to see in our polarized culture today, where. [00:10:22] Speaker C: People are looking at the same events. [00:10:24] Speaker D: Looking at the same facts, and we might get into that later, and yet. [00:10:28] Speaker C: They'Re responding in completely different ways and they're unable to even have a conversation because they're seeing the same thing in totally different ways. [00:10:40] Speaker D: I mean, whether the January 6 event, two different groups are seeing that totally. [00:10:47] Speaker C: Different of things that went on and. [00:10:50] Speaker D: We'Re definitely not going to debate that one. [00:10:52] Speaker C: But those are the kind of indicators. [00:10:55] Speaker D: That helps us to realize that our. [00:10:58] Speaker C: Glasses, the way we're looking at the. [00:10:59] Speaker D: World, determines how we respond to it. But it's much more than intellectual thinking and that's why it's not philosophy. I like to sort of define it by contrasting with some of the other kinds of things that we maybe had a class in in college or read a book in or something. [00:11:20] Speaker C: Philosophy is one. [00:11:22] Speaker D: And so the question is, is worldview philosophy? Well, it touches on the similar areas, but philosophy is more just intellectual comprehension or statement of what I may think or what I even may believe. [00:11:38] Speaker C: Worldview pushes that deeper into how we act and react. [00:11:43] Speaker D: So I use the illustration with my students. We could do philosophy and we'd go sit under a tree and we would talk philosophers apparently sometimes did that, and we would talk about what we think and ideas and even ask big questions of life. But when we got done, we would walk from underneath the tree and go live life. And it might not impact us. Now, true philosophers would say, no, it impacts you. But worldview sort of says it absolutely. [00:12:11] Speaker C: Impacts you, what you truly believe. [00:12:13] Speaker D: So you can tell me what your. [00:12:15] Speaker C: Philosophy is underneath the tree, but if. [00:12:19] Speaker D: I want to know your worldview, I. [00:12:20] Speaker C: Follow you around and I watch your response to everything in life, and then I'm able actually to determine what you believe about the big questions, about the big things. [00:12:34] Speaker D: So in that sense, everybody has a worldview. That's commonly said because philosophy, well, everybody doesn't. They haven't thought down and articulated the. [00:12:43] Speaker C: Answers to the big questions. [00:12:44] Speaker D: But people, as a result of living life, responding to whatever they have been. [00:12:50] Speaker C: Exposed to have a worldview. They have a response to what they see. [00:12:55] Speaker D: And this worldview is either conscious or sort of subconscious. [00:13:01] Speaker C: They don't know they have one. [00:13:02] Speaker D: Others, like I did in college and Chris did in college, you're like, wait a minute, do I really believe this? And by the way, is it going. [00:13:10] Speaker C: To impact my life? Is it going to change me? And if I do, then it should. Then I've begun to think carefully about worldview. [00:13:18] Speaker D: And the nice thing about worldview is also not apologetics. I'll leave Chris the apologetics, and we have a great course. Dr. Stevenson teaches here on apologetics. Apologetics is providing answers and responses to. [00:13:30] Speaker C: Defend the Christian faith. [00:13:33] Speaker D: And we're more sort of practical living it out and asking big questions, but. [00:13:40] Speaker C: It'S pushing people to where they live rather than just providing reasonable answers. So that's maybe a good start. [00:13:49] Speaker B: Yeah. When you teach this worldview class, what is kind of the main goal of the class? What's the main purpose that you're trying to drive home to the students? [00:13:58] Speaker C: Yeah, I want my students to understand their worldview. [00:14:02] Speaker B: Okay. [00:14:03] Speaker D: They come in with some understanding of. [00:14:06] Speaker C: Christianity, some understanding of theology, some understanding of the Bible. [00:14:10] Speaker D: They're building on that greatly in the other courses. [00:14:14] Speaker C: But in my worldview course, I want. [00:14:16] Speaker D: Them to be able to see how. [00:14:18] Speaker C: That practically is lived out. [00:14:20] Speaker D: And there's a lot of other courses. [00:14:21] Speaker C: That do that as well. The other thing that I want to do is actually prepare them to interact with our world and our culture and our society. And so one of the things about. [00:14:32] Speaker D: Worldview and I sometimes again contrast my class with other classes they'll get, and I'll say it's not a theology class. [00:14:38] Speaker C: Even though we do some theology not. [00:14:40] Speaker D: Apologetics class, it's not a philosophy course. [00:14:42] Speaker C: I also say it's not a Bible class. [00:14:45] Speaker D: Now it is. We do some Bible. [00:14:48] Speaker C: But the one interesting thing about worldview, and particularly the big questions, and we. [00:14:53] Speaker D: Probably will get into some of those. [00:14:55] Speaker C: Big questions that are linked to Worldview is we don't start with the Bible. [00:15:00] Speaker D: And that scares some people. Like, wait a minute, this is a Maest Bible College course. You got to start with the Bible. [00:15:05] Speaker C: The thing is, our culture doesn't start with the Bible. [00:15:07] Speaker D: Now, it used to. I grew up in the Bible Belt. [00:15:09] Speaker C: And there was a foundation and a belief for that. But majority of our world and now the majority of our country doesn't have a biblical foundation. [00:15:20] Speaker D: You could argue some fundamental values of worldview that were related to Christianity. [00:15:26] Speaker C: So therefore, we have to start where they're at, and we have to figure out the answers that they're given to these big questions. And so the questions that are asked in worldview, we don't first go to the Bible. We ultimately get there, but we say we want to ask questions of our culture and society and even of ourselves, get the answers, and then see where that leads, and then ultimately get around to the Bible. [00:15:51] Speaker D: I don't know if that makes sense. [00:15:53] Speaker B: That definitely makes sense. Yeah, it appears to me, especially when you're working with high schoolers or college students on this topic, correct me if I'm wrong. It seems like it's both helpful to evaluate what is my own worldview while at the same time learning how do I evaluate somebody else's worldview? Is that correct? And what are the benefits to each of those? [00:16:16] Speaker D: Yeah, because our students come in generally. [00:16:20] Speaker C: Believing the truth, but at their age. [00:16:23] Speaker D: They'Re still wrestling with do I really believe it? And do I believe it? [00:16:27] Speaker C: Because it was the only option had growing up. Christian school, Christian home, Christian church, all those things. [00:16:34] Speaker D: So I want them to raise those questions. [00:16:37] Speaker C: It's scary sometimes, but I want them to embrace the faith for themselves. And that's a process that every young person has to go through. [00:16:44] Speaker D: And hopefully I have three kids that are now through that process to a certain extent. And so I want them to look carefully. [00:16:55] Speaker C: I want to wrestle with doubts, but I'm also pushing worldview. [00:16:58] Speaker D: So I'm like, Wait a minute. [00:16:59] Speaker C: Your behavior reflects this kind of worldview. [00:17:03] Speaker D: We'll use an example of deism, one of the worldviews generally, most people are familiar with the way God is distant. And so we present that as a worldview. And everybody has worldviews almost. There's an infinite amount of them. But we can put some things in categories. [00:17:21] Speaker C: So for a deist, God is distant. He's far away. He created the world. He made a watch and wound it up and walked away. And so I asked our students and continue to ask myself, do I act like the God I believe in is a deus God, that he's very distant? And I raise the hard questions. I'm like, are your prayers being answered? Has God shown up? Has he talked to you? And you've heard all these people? [00:17:51] Speaker D: Oh, yeah, God speaks to me every morning. And I meet him and I say. [00:17:55] Speaker C: Have you experienced that? What does that look like? What does that feel like? [00:17:57] Speaker D: And depending on the different personalities and. [00:18:00] Speaker C: Type of person they are, what their experiences are. They begin to wrestle. And then I say, Are you living like a deist? Do you really believe that God can miraculously show up in your life? So absolutely. I want them to think carefully about their own lives and their own beliefs, because they can check the boxes and say, yeah, I believe in triune God, who's revealed himself and Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and Jesus came and died on the cross, fully God and fully man. [00:18:32] Speaker D: And we're teaching them that thing, those. [00:18:34] Speaker C: Things, because those are the truths. The question is, are they living it out? Is it real for them or is it just an intellectual exercise? [00:18:43] Speaker B: And that's like that difference almost between philosophy and worldview you're talking about a minute ago, right? Like, you can think these things, but is it reflected in how you're living? [00:18:50] Speaker C: Right. But I also want them to look around at the world around them. [00:18:55] Speaker D: And deism is really fun because there's. [00:18:57] Speaker C: Plenty of country music songs that really reflect deism. [00:19:00] Speaker D: And I'm from the south. Every semester I get one or two students that still listen to country music. [00:19:07] Speaker C: And country music, it's growing. [00:19:09] Speaker B: You'll have more. [00:19:09] Speaker D: I know it's happening. And it's really fun because so much. [00:19:15] Speaker C: Of country music reflects the deist view of God. Of course they believe in God. Of course they want to be good to their mom and definitely their mom. [00:19:24] Speaker D: And they want to have their pickup truck and the other things that happen in it. But you look carefully and all aspects. [00:19:31] Speaker C: Of their life are inconsistent with the. [00:19:33] Speaker D: God we believe in. They just hope things are going to. [00:19:36] Speaker C: Work out in the end. They hope God sort of shows up. [00:19:39] Speaker D: When they need him. And in the end, God will take care. And it's the grandfather upstairs. Good Lord will take care, and he's blessed us, and we should respond with Thanksgiving. [00:19:50] Speaker C: But Jesus dying on the cross, Christ rising from the dead, no, they aren't going to embrace all of that. And we can become like that, and we have neighbors. [00:20:03] Speaker D: Again, I grew up in the Bible Belt, and the majority of the people. [00:20:07] Speaker C: Were living a deist version of God. [00:20:10] Speaker D: And my good works well outweighed my bad works. [00:20:14] Speaker C: And so seeing those kind of things, helping them to identify and really ask. [00:20:19] Speaker D: Questions, I discourage people from, oh, now I know what an existentialist is. [00:20:24] Speaker C: And so I walk around, oh, there's an existentialist. No. Ask questions to learn what people think about these things. And again, we start where they're at. That's what the questions do. And we don't start with Jesus dying on the cross for them. We don't even start with sin, because. [00:20:45] Speaker D: They don't have categories for those. Again, I grew up the Bible Belt. [00:20:49] Speaker C: Where everybody knew, but not anymore. [00:20:53] Speaker D: And so, as Paul did in act. [00:20:55] Speaker C: 17 on Mars Hill, he started where they were at. [00:21:01] Speaker D: He started with Epicureans and the Stoics. [00:21:03] Speaker C: And his sermon, if you break it. [00:21:05] Speaker D: Down, and I do in my class. [00:21:07] Speaker C: Paul addresses all of these deep, significant questions, worldview questions, essentially, but he addresses them not by using Old Testament scripture. [00:21:18] Speaker B: But by quoting their own right. In him, we live and move and have a quote of yeah, but he applies it to the God, the Father, right? Yeah. [00:21:25] Speaker D: He's moving them and showing them actually. [00:21:27] Speaker C: Where he can affirm aspects. You worship an unknown god. I'm going to tell you who that God is. So I think his method is necessary. [00:21:39] Speaker D: Now for our culture, and we have. [00:21:41] Speaker C: To do it as carefully as Paul did. He went around, he walked, he talked, he interacted in the marketplace. He saw what they were doing. [00:21:48] Speaker D: He listened to their poets. And that's why I say we can. [00:21:52] Speaker C: Carefully listen to their music and understand their worldview and understand their thinking so. [00:21:57] Speaker D: That we can connect with them. [00:21:58] Speaker C: Does Paul get to the resurrection? Yes, he does, and he gets to judgment. But his process of getting there is not quoting Old Testament scriptures as he. [00:22:08] Speaker D: Does other places in the Book of Acts. [00:22:10] Speaker C: It's working with where they come from. [00:22:13] Speaker D: And again, it's so enjoyable to do. [00:22:17] Speaker C: This as we think about the truth we have of the gospel. [00:22:20] Speaker D: And that's my goal for my students. [00:22:23] Speaker C: Is to come to realize, yes, we have the truth. And by the way, our truth is applicable to every worldview. [00:22:29] Speaker D: We work with Eastern religions, Eastern pantheistic monism, which is a tough one because. [00:22:35] Speaker C: We don't even have categories, except for. [00:22:38] Speaker D: Disney and a few other places. [00:22:42] Speaker C: But we find there that they're answering the same questions, the same big questions, even though most of that part of. [00:22:49] Speaker D: The world didn't have the Bible. [00:22:52] Speaker C: But their philosophers have been wrestling with. [00:22:56] Speaker D: These big questions, and we have the. [00:22:58] Speaker C: Answers, and eventually we do get to Jesus Christ. But first we move from where they're at to where we want them to be with the gospel. [00:23:09] Speaker B: Music is a big part of this class. When you teach this class, and I think music is and it's obviously, we're not just having class about a conversation about the specific class, but music is a big part of worldview. When I interact with the freshmen around campus, a lot of times, if you talk to them about the worldview class, they're talking about the music that you listen to and things like that. And so talk to me some about music and worldview and why you feel like it's important to listen to music in your class and to study it and to think through it. [00:23:41] Speaker D: It's just a reflection of the culture, okay? [00:23:44] Speaker C: It's an artistic expression of the culture. And when somebody, anywhere, anyhow, any way, produces something artistically, they are expressing their worldview, okay? You have to if you're truly, truly seeking to be creative and artistic, your. [00:24:01] Speaker D: Worldview will be reflected in what you produced. I mean, some of them, maybe the country music stars are just pretty faces and voices, but somebody wrote those songs. [00:24:11] Speaker C: Maybe just to make money. [00:24:12] Speaker D: But actually, if they made it just. [00:24:14] Speaker C: To make money, that reflects their worldview. [00:24:16] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:24:17] Speaker C: So in three or four minutes, it. [00:24:21] Speaker D: Gives you a chance to actually evaluate a particular worldview. [00:24:26] Speaker C: You got to listen carefully. It's poetry. [00:24:30] Speaker D: So the message comes across in different ways. But whether it's Lady Gaga, whether it's. [00:24:36] Speaker C: You two, whether it's Katy Perry or. [00:24:39] Speaker D: Anybody else, especially the artists that are. [00:24:43] Speaker C: Seeking to be artists, they are trying. [00:24:44] Speaker D: To communicate a message. [00:24:46] Speaker C: And so when you listen and I. [00:24:48] Speaker D: Show the words, we read the words. [00:24:49] Speaker C: We listen to the music as well, because the part of the art is to get you to feel and respond. True art does that. Music does that. And the words in a good artistic. [00:25:00] Speaker D: Song and I'm not an expert in this area, I just enjoy it connects with the message. It makes you feel either makes you. [00:25:07] Speaker C: Feel down if it's a nihilistic song that's distressing you, or it's existentialist and it's trying to get you to move and be passionate, enjoy and live life. So the songs are really easy to do. [00:25:20] Speaker D: I really would like to do movies, but you don't have time, class. And there's a lot of different areas and difficulties with working with music or with movies. But music's work really well. And I find that the students are. [00:25:31] Speaker C: Listening to all of this already, which. [00:25:33] Speaker D: Is one of the critical things I emphasize about worldview. [00:25:36] Speaker C: I said that a song will promote a worldview if you are not as we said, my passion is to get. [00:25:42] Speaker D: Students not only to see their own. [00:25:43] Speaker C: Worldview, but recognize it in culture. If you do not see the worldview in that song or in that movie, or in anything else you expose yourself to, you are being impacted without knowing it. And again, I don't want to overstate that, but I also don't want to. [00:25:59] Speaker D: Understate it just because God created us. [00:26:01] Speaker C: To absorb, respond, learned and be changed by what we're exposed to. That's why we're reminded over and over. [00:26:07] Speaker D: Again, be careful about what we think, about what we expose ourselves to. So. [00:26:16] Speaker C: If Christians are listening to these songs and they aren't conscious of the. [00:26:20] Speaker D: Worldview that's being presented, they are in. [00:26:23] Speaker C: Some way absorbing it without knowing it. I want them not just to turn it off, although I warn them that some of you can't handle it, you're. [00:26:31] Speaker D: Being impacted and you need to turn it off. [00:26:33] Speaker C: You need to stop listening, which was. [00:26:36] Speaker D: Sort of the way I grew up. [00:26:37] Speaker C: But I'd rather say, listen carefully, understand the worldview. In fact, one of the assignments I. [00:26:44] Speaker D: Have is to go through to analyze. [00:26:46] Speaker C: The song, to ask all the hard questions, to link it to worldview. And then my last part of the exercise is if you were to sit down and have a conversation with the artist, what would you share with them? And okay, they have analyzed the song and it's a deist. What would you share with them? How would you connect from where they're at? The song reveals that they're a deist. [00:27:07] Speaker D: That they believe that God's out there somewhere, but not really involved, not doing miraculous things. [00:27:12] Speaker C: How would you answer? [00:27:14] Speaker D: And again, some of them, my students tend, oh, I would tell them that. [00:27:16] Speaker C: Jesus died for I was like, no, they aren't ready for that yet. How would you move from where they're at in their understanding of worldview, of these big questions, to where the gospel meets them? Because that's what I think we need to do. [00:27:34] Speaker D: God's spirit has to work, obviously, but we need to be prepared to respond. So, yeah, I say be careful what you listen to because the worldview is coming through. But I try and say it's enjoyable. Some people think I ruin all songs and ruin all movies. I'd be a worse person to watch a movie with, but I find it. [00:27:53] Speaker C: More enjoyable and thoughtful to think about. And by the way, I think that's how we should approach people. [00:27:59] Speaker D: Not as a project, but this is. [00:28:01] Speaker C: Someone who's made in God's image, who doesn't know the truth of the gospel, but they're wrestling with the deep questions of life. They don't even know that. But by asking a few questions, I can see where they're at and I can appreciate actually and affirm some of those things. I mean, Eastern pantheistic monism, Eastern religion. [00:28:18] Speaker D: Is like, what in the world does. [00:28:19] Speaker C: That they affirm a oneness that there is only one thing. Well, guess what? What does God offer us? A oneness in Christ. A oneness in the body of Christ. And Jesus himself prays that we would be one, even as he and the Father are one. But Eastern pantheistic monism affirms that, but then denies individuality. Right. So they overemphasize something. And I talk about the tensions in the Christian theism worldview. [00:28:49] Speaker D: Yes, ultimately, I want them to have. [00:28:50] Speaker C: A Christian worldview is actually holding those things in tension. One Corinthians Twelve talks about the unity. [00:28:57] Speaker D: Of the body of Christ, and yet. [00:28:59] Speaker C: Each person has an individual gift and. [00:29:02] Speaker D: Are able to exercise that individual gift. So we don't lose our individuality when. [00:29:05] Speaker C: We come to the body of Christ, but we get all the oneness that. [00:29:08] Speaker D: We desire and that we were made for. [00:29:10] Speaker C: So even as Paul affirmed aspects of the culture in Athens, knowing worldview and knowing Christian theism worldview in contrast to. [00:29:24] Speaker D: Others, helps you to say, oh, I. [00:29:26] Speaker C: Can affirm this aspect, but let me correct it. So you actually are able to receive from the one true God what truly meets the need. You sought to meet a need, but you ended up in a wrong direction. You end up losing and not fulfilling what God has for you. [00:29:44] Speaker B: You've referenced. A few times, kind of these big worldview questions, right? These questions, if I'm understanding right, these questions that everybody in some way is trying to answer or has, whether consciously or subconsciously come up with an answer to themselves. What are some of these big questions? [00:30:06] Speaker D: Yeah. And I'll default here to James, sire. This is the book that we use in our class, The Universe Next Door, and his definition is good. We can review that, too. [00:30:17] Speaker C: But he lists eight questions. [00:30:19] Speaker B: Okay? [00:30:19] Speaker C: And these are really important because these are what we're asking about the song, about the movie, and more importantly, about our neighbor. And again, most people don't know the. [00:30:31] Speaker D: Answers maybe to these questions of fellow college students, for our students, but they're. [00:30:37] Speaker C: Living in a way that reveals what they believe about these big questions. [00:30:42] Speaker D: So I'm just going to go through them and I'll mention really quick, and you can keep me moving or no, that sounds great. [00:30:48] Speaker C: Yeah. So the first question is what is the prime reality, the really real, that. [00:30:52] Speaker D: Is at the bottom of everything? What do you get to and Sire says there's really only two real questions. [00:30:58] Speaker C: God or some sort of form of. [00:31:00] Speaker D: Gods or gods, because this is big and broad. This is the whole world. Philosophers, before they had access to the Bible or anything else, were asking these kind of questions. So it's either god or some form. [00:31:12] Speaker C: Of gods, or it's material stuff. So atheism and the order of these questions are important. [00:31:19] Speaker D: So people either believe that now, again, do they live it out? That's one of the things about the definition of a worldview, of whether they. [00:31:27] Speaker C: Live it consistently or inconsistently. [00:31:30] Speaker D: But that's the foundational question that people ultimately have to answer, is what is the prime reality, the really real? Maybe you've heard the Eastern religion view that there's turtles all the way down because it's answering the question, well, what's holding up the world? The turtle. And what's holding up the turtle? The turtle. And what's holding up the turtles all the way down? So that's an answer to the prime reality. [00:31:55] Speaker C: We as Christian theists, would affirm God. [00:31:58] Speaker D: Now, then you add to the answer. [00:32:00] Speaker C: To that what kind of God? [00:32:02] Speaker D: What is he like? Which is part of question number one as well. [00:32:06] Speaker C: Question number two is what is the. [00:32:07] Speaker D: Nature of external reality that is the world around us? [00:32:10] Speaker C: How do we see the world around it? Is it chaotic? Is it created? Has it evolved? Is it just stuff? [00:32:18] Speaker D: Is there almost no difference between question. [00:32:22] Speaker C: Number two, the external reality and the prime reality? Are they the same? [00:32:28] Speaker D: Question three deals with what sorry. [00:32:30] Speaker B: Which is why that order is important, like you mentioned. [00:32:32] Speaker D: Absolutely. [00:32:33] Speaker C: In a sense, as you answer question one, it sets at least if you. [00:32:37] Speaker D: Answer consistently answers to the other questions. [00:32:40] Speaker B: Okay. [00:32:40] Speaker D: Yeah. So the order is really, really important. [00:32:42] Speaker B: Sorry to interrupt you. [00:32:43] Speaker D: No, please. I'm used to teaching this. We're covering a lot of information very quickly, what is a human being? [00:32:52] Speaker C: So we have to answer what is a human? Are we evolved, ape like creature or. [00:32:58] Speaker D: Are we made in the image of. [00:33:00] Speaker C: God and we would bring in the aspects of the fall. Are we broken? Are we the way we're supposed to be? Are we the way nature has created or evolved us to be? Or is there something wrong with us? That's all involved in question number three. [00:33:14] Speaker D: What is a human being? [00:33:15] Speaker C: What happens to a person at death? Everybody deals with death. [00:33:20] Speaker D: And every culture, every society, every philosophy, every worldview has to answer that big question are we reincarnated? Do we just become food for worms? Or does there something else that is after death? [00:33:37] Speaker C: Number five, why is it possible to know anything at all? Now, I'll use this question to illustrate why these questions are so important in. [00:33:45] Speaker D: Terms of how deep they are. [00:33:47] Speaker C: The question is not what do we know? That's what we usually think. [00:33:51] Speaker D: What do we know? [00:33:53] Speaker C: It's why is it possible to know anything at all? [00:33:57] Speaker D: Which pushes the question. That's what I really encourage my students. [00:34:00] Speaker C: Know these questions and use them to push deeper than the surface questions. Well, you think you know truth. You think your truth is different than my truth. [00:34:10] Speaker D: And again, postmodernism is a worldview that. [00:34:12] Speaker C: Permeates our culture and society, that involves knowledge. No, we say we push it deeper. Why is it even possible? Why do humans know? [00:34:22] Speaker D: Been Tracy and I have been watching documentaries on octopus. She read a book about an octopus that had the perspective of the octopus. [00:34:29] Speaker C: That was the story, the novel. [00:34:31] Speaker D: And so these creatures are incredibly intelligent. [00:34:36] Speaker C: So do they know or do they not know? They seem to be able to learn and almost interact with a human. Why is it possible for them to know anything else, anything at all, to know us, to respond? And humans have the same thing. [00:34:52] Speaker D: Question six is one of the most important one. [00:34:54] Speaker C: How do we know what is right and wrong? And again, this is really, really important in terms of it's not what is right and wrong. And this is so important. As Christians interact in our culture, we want people to be convinced that homosexuality is wrong. Now, I'm not saying that that's not a true statement. It is absolutely. The Bible reveals clearly that homosexuality is wrong. That's not question six. Question six is how do we know what is right and wrong? And I think it's much more valuable as we have a discussion with somebody who has no foundation of anything Christian that we talk about. How do we know? [00:35:36] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:35:36] Speaker B: Well, because, for example, that specific conversation, right, you will have people that say your magic book tells you it's wrong, so it's wrong. And that's what you're getting at is the heart of not just what's right or wrong. But how do we know? Why is this? [00:35:52] Speaker C: Yeah, early on I don't think we want to have a debate about whether. [00:35:57] Speaker D: Homosexuality is right or wrong. [00:36:00] Speaker C: We want to have a discussion, never a debate. We're loving people towards the gospel. We want to have a discussion about how do you know that homosexuality is right? Because you're really passionate about me being wrong. Everybody is convinced that they have morals. [00:36:21] Speaker D: It's interesting that I cover the law of non contradiction. There is no absolute moral standard like wait a minute, you've just made a statement that's an absolute moral statement. [00:36:32] Speaker C: So I use that. But people are passionate and we can almost affirm that, say, wow, you're really passionate about you being correct on this moral issue. Why? How do you know that you're right on that? Well, I just know. Well, that's interesting to have that authority. Is there any other authority that you have or used? Now we've pushed the question deeper. Now I think we can have a better discussion that gets back to actually the other questions. Well, I believe in a sovereign God who has revealed Himself and this is the way he has revealed Himself and this is the way that I am confident, humbly confident in a God that's revealed Himself about the issue of homosexuality. And we can even affirm the fact that God made us to love and live in community. And maybe you found that in a homosexual relationship. I think we can almost really, really carefully affirm that they have found a little small sliver of what God intended in a relationship. But it's wrong. But we've now pushed the question deeper, which I think is important for our continuing discussion. I tell my students your goal is not to win the argument. [00:37:49] Speaker D: We're not doing apologetics, we're doing worldview. [00:37:52] Speaker C: Your goal is to continue the conversation because it's usually going to take more than one conversation to bring a person. [00:38:01] Speaker D: To realize, as well as the Holy. [00:38:03] Speaker C: Spirit working, that they need the gospel. And morality is a great place to go. But again, don't stay on the moral issue. It's better to push deeper and say what's the basis, what's the foundation? How can we begin to have a discussion? What is the meaning of human history? This is not the individual me. It's looking at what's the purpose for all of humanity? This is great when working with people that are environmentalist or whatever and we. [00:38:31] Speaker D: Can look at the Bible, but we're. [00:38:33] Speaker C: Saying humans are important and significant. Everybody seems to believe that. Why? What was their beginning, what is their ending? And this is not a discussion necessarily of evolution. We're pushing the question deeper. Apologetics. [00:38:46] Speaker D: Okay, let's argue for the existence of God. Let's argue for intelligent design. [00:38:49] Speaker C: Worldview, I think is easier for the rest of us that don't do all the study or deep reading or have. [00:38:55] Speaker D: To deal with big philosophy questions. [00:38:58] Speaker C: This is just what people think about how is human history involved evolving or happening, or is there any purpose or meaning? [00:39:07] Speaker D: And again, you could work through, if. [00:39:09] Speaker C: You answer question number one, how these other questions consistently would be answered. And revealing a person's inconsistency in their worldview is really, really important. When an atheist goes home and loves their wife and kids, which I believe they do, many of them do, where's the basis for that? If you started without God and you believe just were evolved creatures, nothing different than the octopus, wow, you really care about your wife. You're really to sacrifice. Is that just an evolutionary process? I thought evolution just meant you perpetuate the species. Why have you committed to this person and show such care and love? What you're doing is you're raising questions about an inconsistency. They're actually living more like a Christian theist sometimes in their relationships. [00:39:57] Speaker D: And it's like you can't answer these. [00:40:00] Speaker C: Other questions this way and then end up living in this way. Those are the ways you can affirm, which I think is really, really important as we interact with people. The last question, Sire added this later. [00:40:11] Speaker D: In what is he up to? Six editions, actually. He died, he's with the Lord, he's a believer. But they published another edition after his death. But I think it was four or five editions when he added question eight. [00:40:23] Speaker C: That again makes worldview more about living life. He says what personal life orienting core commitments are consistent with this worldview? In other words, if I've answered I. [00:40:32] Speaker D: Sort of was dealing with that just now. [00:40:33] Speaker C: If I've answered all seven questions in a certain way that are consistent, then how will I live? [00:40:39] Speaker D: What will be the commitments that I do? And I want you to notice, Eric. [00:40:43] Speaker C: That what's great about these questions is they're all presuppositions or assumptions. So this is not about debate in a sense. What happens after death? [00:40:53] Speaker D: Well, we believe that we will rise. [00:40:56] Speaker C: With Christ because Christ rose from the dead. Is there good evidence for Christ rising from the dead? [00:41:02] Speaker D: Yes. [00:41:03] Speaker C: Is it absolute scientific reproducible in the laboratory? No. So all of these questions which makes it really, really, I think, enjoyable for. [00:41:13] Speaker D: Like I say, us normal people that aren't going to read the deep philosophy. [00:41:16] Speaker C: Or have all the apologetic answers, is these are answers that people just have to give. And they are presuppositions, they are assumptions that we make, but they affect our lives in incredible ways. [00:41:29] Speaker D: In fact, we live every day with meaning and purpose based on how we answer these or how we really believe them and live them out. So apologetics, you might seek to prove that the prime reality is God, but. [00:41:41] Speaker C: With worldview, like, how do you answer the question? Okay, that's interesting. We might ask what a basis is for asking that question, and apologetics will help us maybe, but we're more concerned about, oh, okay, that leads you down this path. We're nothing but material. There's nothing but matter. That's interesting. Now you believe that there's morality. You have a basis for your right and wrong out of matter. You don't seem to live that way. You seem to really be passionate about right and wrong. So those are the kind of things I think our students can learn to address as they interact with culture in the world. [00:42:18] Speaker B: I think that's really helpful. That's really helpful. This conversation could go on forever. There's a lot of fascinating things we'll probably have to bring you back on to discuss some of this. Actually, Mike Gills wants to come on and discuss some worldview stuff. [00:42:32] Speaker D: He teaches as well. We've shared information. [00:42:34] Speaker B: Good. [00:42:35] Speaker D: It's great to get a lot of. [00:42:36] Speaker C: Different people's perspective on this topic. [00:42:37] Speaker B: I'm glad to hear that. So I'm sure we'll discuss more. But this was very informative. Very. Thank you. And one of the things I think that comes across, and probably come across to the listeners too is just your passion in this, it seems like, is out of love. Out of love for the students, out of love for the world of let's try to figure out where are you thinking, how are you living? Not because I want to scold you, not because of anything like that. How dare you listen to this music? What are you doing? But because I love you. And so I want you to have an understanding of how this is impacting you and I want to teach you how to love other people. And I really appreciate that. It's come across very clearly in this and I think it's amazing. [00:43:23] Speaker C: Yeah. James Smith, who's written on this subject. [00:43:26] Speaker D: Desiring the Kingdom, sort of pushes back against worldview. But I think his pushback is to make sure it's not too intellectual. [00:43:34] Speaker C: He wants it to link to love and desire, human desire and human love. [00:43:39] Speaker D: So I don't think he's really that different from expressing these aspects. Because, again, Cyrus uses the definition it's a commitment at a fundamental orientation of the heart that responds to know. [00:43:56] Speaker C: I want to live the abundant life and I want our students to and the abundant life means enjoying all of God's gifts that he's given in a way that doesn't distract and where they don't become idols. And our focus is on what is. [00:44:10] Speaker D: God has given in Christ. The good gifts. Yeah, we can learn some from the. [00:44:15] Speaker C: Existentialist in terms of living life to the full, but not with no purpose and just trying to make some subjective world. So, yeah, I want our students to not separate their Christian life from the rest of their life. And I think the contemplation of worldview forces us to make sure we're not doing that well. [00:44:39] Speaker B: Thank you very much for coming on today. I really appreciate it. [00:44:42] Speaker C: It's been a pleasure to be with you, Eric. [00:44:43] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:44:45] Speaker A: Thank you for listening to Concerning Him, an Emma's podcast ministries like concerning him are possible because of the generous contributions from our partners around the world. For more information about partnering with us, please visit emeas.edu partner.